Strategic Imperfection: How to Use Instagram for Clients...Not Just Likes and Follows - Lezlie Swink
The thing that makes you an exceptional interior designer might be sabotaging your Instagram marketing :(
If you're one of the many residential interior designers who market their business on Instagram but aren’t seeing many qualified leads coming from the Gram, you’re going to love/hate this podcast episode. Lezlie Swink of Swink Social Co is here to deliver a masterclass on Instagram marketing for interior designers.
In our conversation, Lezlie breaks down what's really holding most designers back on Instagram - and it's not what you think. She explains why Instagram is not a free marketing tool, how the platform's algorithm has evolved, and why the perfectly curated grid that worked five years ago doesn’t work anymore.
Most importantly, she reveals her framework of five strategic content types that can help you transform your Instagram marketing into something that actually works for your business.
Your beautiful interior design portfolio deserves better…it deserves a beautifully designed Instagram marketing strategy to help it turn likes into shares into DMs into website visits, emails and phone calls. Because at the end of the day, your interior design business is a business…and if your Instagram account isn’t helping to build that business, what good is it?
So…if you’re a residential designer that wants to turn their Instagram account into a lead generating machine, you’re going to love my podcast interview with Lezlie Swink of Swink Social Co.
Listen to the podcast…
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Chapters
00:00 - Introduction
01:20 - Origin Story
02:29 - Instagram Misconceptions
04:33 - Owned Marketing Assets
05:44 - Brand Consistency
06:48 - Brand Consistency of Different Platforms
08:15 - INSTAGRAM vs TIKTOK vs FACEBOOK vs...
09:54 - Instagram Pictures, Reels, Stories, Lives
12:38 - Marketing on Social Media in 2025
18:08 - Every Instagram Post Should Have a Purpose
24:07 - How Much Time Should a Designer Spend on Instagram
28:31 - What Does Lezlie Swink Do For Interior Designers
35:42 - What Should New Clients Expect?
40:15 - Which Metrics Matter?
43:19 - Who Are You Speaking To: Followers or Non-Followers?
45:10 - Success and Failure
49:09 - Advice for Instagram Beginners
52:16 - Engagement
54:15 - Collaboration
62:15 - Outro
Read the transcript…
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Leslie, what got you to focus specifically on social media for interior designers? How did you come about to do that?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Well, I. I wish the story was a little bit more glamorous, but. But it's not. I've always loved interior design. So, you know, even when I was younger, you know, I didn't go for, you know, Teen Vogue and all of that. I went for the design publications. And I can still remember when HGTV came out. So I've always been very interested in design. Not very good at it. So when I decided I wanted to, you know, take the social media skills that I had to create my own business, I did work with several different industries. I always knew that interior design was one that I really wanted to work with, but I wanted to see first.
So after working with several different industries, I was like, yep, that's it. That's what I want to focus on. So it's. Since then, it was like I just kind of made that direction and. Or headed that direction and haven't Looked back.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: That's cool. Now, I know you don't specialize exclusively in Instagram, but obviously for designers, Instagram is like far and away the top social media platform. So let's dive in there. I'm curious, do you have possibly, what's the biggest misconception interior designers have about Instagram?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Well, we could probably do an entire podcast on that, but for this question, I'll keep it short, but I do have like three, three big ones that I think are probably worth noting.
And the first one is really, it's the expectations. So, you know, a lot of times designers think that, you know, they can just jump on Instagram and start posting some content, thinking that, you know, they're going to automatically grow. And maybe that was.
Maybe that was the case three years ago, five years ago, things like that. But things are a lot different now. So it's not something that you're going to be able to just jump on and see immediate success. So I think one of the misconceptions is just around the reality of what it takes these days to make Instagram work as a marketing tool.
The second misconception, I think that not only designers, I think just as a whole business owners have, is that Instagram is just content creation. And while it is important to create good content, I think there is a huge missed opportunity by not focusing on connecting and using it as a networking tool again, to just to make those connections with people.
So that's a big one. And then the third one is thinking that Instagram is your marketing. Right. It should be a tool in your marketing toolkit, but you should have other marketing efforts, you know, in that toolkit. And, you know, Instagram should definitely complement those.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, a number two platform, what would that be for you?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: So number two would probably be an email list. Honestly, I think everybody should have an email list. I always try to. You know, I'm a big believer in having a diverse marketing strategy.
And part of that diversity is marketing assets that you own versus marketing assets that you don't own. And so, you know, Instagram, if it goes away tomorrow, that's it. But you don't. You. It's gone. All your content is gone.
But your email list, that is something that is yours. Nobody can take that away from you. Yeah, maybe something happens with your email service provider. They go out. But there's tons of email service providers, writers. But you have your list. You know, blogging, that is another type of owned marketing asset.
But, you know, whenever we're relying on these other platforms, I mean, a lot of people got really scared a couple weeks ago with TikTok because that was going away. So I think making sure that you have that diverse, that diverse plan, you're not, if one, if something happens and one thing goes away, you're not a sitting duck.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: And would you say that those, those different platforms can work together?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Oh, they absolutely should work together, yes. Again, it's, you know, because you want to, your marketing plan, no matter where you're showing up, your brand should be consistent and your messaging should be consistent.
And so you're not having to really recreate content for each, each part, each marketing asset. It's really like, how can you take this and make it applicable? If I do a Instagram post, how can I take that and make it applicable to email?
Right. How can I, you know, maybe that, maybe that Instagram post was part of a bigger blog post. Right. So you've taken this blog post, you've created some Instagram content around it, you've created some email around it, then you're going to pin that to your Pinterest, you know, so, you know, just depending on, maybe you put it on LinkedIn.
So you just have kind of all of that content kind of working in a circle.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, you mentioned brand. And so obviously all we're constantly told by marketers that having a good understanding of what your brand is, who your client avatar is, is like essential, kind of like a top down thing.
How does, how does brand get impacted on these different platforms? Am I, even though I have like this ideal client avatar, I know who I want to work with. Am I, do I show up as a different person on Instagram versus Pinterest versus my email list versus anything else?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: No, not at all. Because that actually is going to confuse your audience even more. That brand should be consistent. So voice should be consistent across all, you know, across all different platforms. Visuals should be consistent across all platforms.
I always tell people too, you know, think about all of the places where, you know, your picture shows up. So let's say like, you know, your Instagram profile, you've got your picture there. You want that picture to be the same on Pinterest, on LinkedIn, wherever you go, because it's easy, easily recognizable.
So it's really, that brand isn't, it's, it's what helps you maintain that consistency no matter where you show up.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay. I've heard on other podcasts and videos, marketers who deal more, not with any particular niche set of clients, and they'll say, well, the platforms are different, right.
The, the TikTok audience is different from the Instagram audience, but in the last year they've kind of reversed that position and said, no, the TikTok audience is aging as. So, you know, when it first started, it was kids doing dances and then stunts and dares.
Well, it's matured so quickly that boomers and Gen X are like a huge part of the population now. So I think you're, you know, the idea of staying consistent with your brand across platforms. That idea always bothered me that people would try to be someone different on TikTok than they are on Facebook.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Well, and I think what people crave is authenticity, no matter where you show up. Right. So I think that you are doing yourself and your audience a disservice if you're trying to fit in to these little standards per platform other.
But you. What you should be doing, your approach should be, you're going to show up who you are, but maybe the trends look a little bit different on what you're, you know, from this platform to this platform because still going to show up the same, but maybe you have a different approach about how you interpret that trend and how you utilize that trend.
So I think that's probably how, you know, in my opinion, the best way to, to make all of those, to make. To be relevant on each platform but still maintain that brand consistency.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, makes sense. If we come back to Instagram, obviously, interior design, very visual and. And maybe that made complete sense on Instagram a year or two ago where, you know, your, your wall looked this beautiful curated thing. But now reels are such a huge part stories are such a huge part, people going live and doing things like that.
So the idea of Instagram, of interior designers going on Instagram and posting pictures and thinking, that's it, I know how to do Instagram. Does that make sense in 2025?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Not if they are seeing certain results, no.
You know, there are some designers who are completely fine sticking with their. Maybe they're not using. Everybody has different goals of what they want Instagram to do for their business. Some people are not. They might have other marketing ways of lead generation.
They just really want people to have a place that if they are ever like researching, they can go and they look relevant. And so, yeah, I mean, that's fine because your goal isn't to necessarily, you know, get generate leads. It's probably not to grow a following.
You're just there to be relevant. So, you know, I do think that kind of going back to what you said earlier about having you know, posting these pictures and having a highly curated grid, you know, that was very, very important across the board, not just for interior designers, you know, kind of in the early stages of Instagram, but as it has evolved, it's gotten less away from this like curated perfection, if you will.
However, I don't feel that that is applicable to interior design or, you know, or anybody who's doing anything that has. It's got that visual connection to it. It still needs to look good. You can't, you know, have.
It can't be haphazard because that's a reflection of what you're going to bring to the table, you know, as a designer, whether it's an interior designer, a graphic designer, you know, all of those things. So that is really important. But there are ways to still be able to utilize all of those functions and yet keep a highly curated grid.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, makes sense. If we come back to Instagram, obviously, interior design, very visual and.
And maybe that made complete sense on Instagram a year or two ago where, you know, your, your wall looked this beautiful curated thing. But now reels are such a huge part stories are such a huge part, people going live and doing things like that.
So the idea of Instagram, of interior designers going on Instagram and posting pictures and thinking, that's it, I know how to do Instagram. Does that make sense in 2025?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Not if they are seeing certain results, no.
You know, there are some designers who are completely fine sticking with their. Maybe they're not using. Everybody has different goals of what they want Instagram to do for their business. Some people are not. They might have other marketing ways of lead generation.
They just really want people to have a place that if they are ever like researching, they can go and they look relevant. And so, yeah, I mean, that's fine because your goal isn't to necessarily, you know, get generate leads. It's probably not to grow a following.
You're just there to be relevant. So, you know, I do think that kind of going back to what you said earlier about having you know, posting these pictures and having a highly curated grid, you know, that was very, very important across the board, not just for interior designers, you know, kind of in the early stages of Instagram, but as it has evolved, it's gotten less away from this like curated perfection, if you will.
However, I don't feel that that is applicable to interior design or, you know, or anybody who's doing anything that has. It's got that visual connection to it. It still needs to look good. You can't, you know, have.
It can't be haphazard because that's a reflection of what you're going to bring to the table, you know, as a designer, whether it's an interior designer, a graphic designer, you know, all of those things. So that is really important. But there are ways to still be able to utilize all of those functions and yet keep a highly curated grid.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: That's horrible news. So we have to be. Designers have to be authentic yet incredibly beautiful, like at the same time. Yes, that's all. That doesn't seem fair. Yeah, no pressure. Right.
We touched on TikTok briefly and I mean, who knows what's going to happen with that? Yeah, right. But Tick Tock's had a huge impact on Instagram, right, In terms of the algorithm. Right. Instead of it being kind of more like Facebook was where it was your connections who you knew.
Now it's very much content driven, interest based. Yes, yes, very much. Okay. So going forward, knowing that Instagram's algorithm is like that, now where do you see if, if someone was maybe not getting started, but they weren't getting what they want out of Instagram so far they're not getting leads, they're not building a larger brand name in terms of followers and, and, and that.
What would you suggest they. They kind of broad picture what they should start focusing on on their Instagram.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Sure, yeah. So the first thing is, you know, they need to identify what it is that they are actually trying to accomplish. You know, if it is lead generation, go back and audit the content that you've already put out there.
Look to see, you know, if you don't have any leads coming in. Well, and also I want to pause right here and just make it really clear because again, I think we could go back to misconceptions. It takes time. Like you can't throw out, you know, 10 posts and think that you're going to get a lead from that.
It just is going to take a lot of time to get that kind of result. But I would say audit the content that you currently have look to see what's working, you know, with the metrics that you have. So, you know, if you're not bringing in leads at that point, look to see what is, what is sending people back to the website.
All right. Or what is bringing people to your profile. Because obviously if they're coming to your profile, they're interested in what you're doing. So that's, that's where you want to take that content and you want to create more of it. Double down on what is working. And then the other thing, and I think a lot of what happens when I see happen all the time, is people don't have a marketing foundation.
Like, everybody thinks that, you know, they can come on to Instagram and market their business, but they don't have an understanding of the fundamentals of marketing. And they still matter. They really, really matter. Just because we're living in this age of social media doesn't mean that, you know, basic marketing principles still don't hold true.
So you still have to identify, you know, what your goals are. You still have to identify who your ideal client is. You still have to identify what are your content pillars, what is your brain, what is your message. Right. So that, that's always consistent. And how do, how does all of that fit into a content plan that will actually help you grow your business?
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah, so we've now, I mean, if we compare today to like the good old Mad Men days of marketing, they had to pay for, for newspapers or, or billboards or to get published in a magazine, all that kind of stuff. And now we've got these amazing free pipelines that connect us to the entire planet.
But to your point, if you don't know how to craft a message for the person you want to get that message, the fact that Instagram is free is, is irrelevant.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yes, I, I actually would say social media is not free.
It's not. You're. I mean, it's still taking your time, and time is probably the most precious asset that we have. And if you're going to put your time into it, then I feel like it should be, it should be worthwhile. Right. So I think if anybody is struggling right now, my first suggestion would be go back to the basics.
Create your marketing foundation, you know, see what's. And start there, because that really kind of gives and we have so many tools these days, you know, because you can take that marketing foundation, you can put it through ChatGPT, it's going to give you so many ideas and things that you can do.
So. But it all goes back to that marketing foundation.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Right. And that's not an easy task, right, to come up with that.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: No, it's not. I remember the first time I had to sit down and create an ideal client avatar and oh my gosh, it was so hard.
I probably spent I don't know how many hours on it, you know, but what's been really nice is that again, kind of leaning back on technology and AI is, you know, you have to understand the basics of it, but now you can take that information and run it through again, like an AI program.
I'm going to say chat GPT is a, like, universal, because that's what I use. But that can really help you flesh out, like, what that looks like, you know, and kind of give you some language around it and you can, you know, you can go back and forth with it and tweak it until you get it just right.
So I feel like, yeah, it's not easy, but it's definitely worth the time. And we have the tools now to expedite the process and even refine the process.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, so let's say I'm a designer who's put in the hard work.
I understand my brand, I understand my ideal client avatar. I'm comfortable with that. If I start posting con or I want to plan new content on Instagram, are there specific types or ways of posting content that attracts followers, get more likes, more interaction and ultimately client leads?
Because I'm assuming some posts will do one thing but not the other.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Every post should have a purpose. So if you're brand new and what we do, and we've created a framework around Instagram where we utilize five different types of content.
And these aren't just random, like, well, that sounds good. And this sounds good. And we'll post this and we'll post that. The reason that we have these five types of content is because it walks somebody through the client journey from I just met you, I like you, I know you, I trust you, I buy from you.
So what we've done is we've got those five types, so that's going to be your value. So value educational. So this is showing people how you do things. These could be tips. What's changed here is we've got to get away from generic tips.
It can't be three paint colors, you know, to use in 120 trip, like three paint colors. We love to use for a moody whatever, being highly specific and showing how you use things like that's really important around kind of that value.
Driven content. Right now we have promotional content, but I'm not talking about, like, your sleazy, used salesman type content. When I say promotional content, I'm show telling. What I want to do with this is I want to show people what we do. All right? I want to show them with my project highlights.
I want to show them with the before and afters. I want to show them with project progression. I want to show them with client stories. I want to show them with feature highlights. So there's a million different ways that you can take one project and come up with a big a bazillion ideas. Okay. Because I think that's the other thing, too, which I'm kind of getting off on a tangent.
Design takes time. You're, you know, you're not cranking out new projects on a weekly basis. So you have to extend that content and you have to be really savvy about how you do it. But it can be done. But. Okay, I digress. Getting back to the five types of content.
The next one is inspirational. There's inspirational and funny, and I like to call these the sprinkles on top. So these are the things that make you relatable, the things that grab attention. Right. Because that's what people are looking for on.
That's what's going to make them stop the scroll and get a little bit interested about who you are. What do you do? So we have those, and then the last one, and this one is the one that designers miss the most personal, personal brand content.
So when I say personal, I'm not saying that you have to open up your diary and tell everybody what you're doing. But I, I see so many designers hiding behind their work. And the thing about it is there are a lot of designers out there.
There are a lot of good designers out there, but there's only one you, and that is your differentiator. Because there is. I mean, you could say I, you know, maybe your niche is, you know, historic homes with the modern twist or whatever.
But guess what? There's going to be people out there that do that, but nobody does it like you. Nobody does it why you do it. Nobody does it how you do it. So you've got to make sure that you're showing your audience that and put your face out there.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yep. Makes 100%. And I mean, that's sad that that that is the thing that they're not doing, because especially with residential.
Yeah, it's. It's such a personal relationship, right. Between the designer and the family. Not like not even just the, the principal of the family who's doing it, but it's like you get to know about their kids. You know, all this stuff you're in, you're. You're in.
You're in their freaking underwear drawers for, like, the better part of, like, 12 months sometimes. So. Yeah. Why. Why would you think that that's not a selling point, who you are?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: I know. It's so true. I will tell you. One of the best compliments that I can receive is when I get on a call with, you know, whether it's somebody that I'm working with, maybe potentially working with, and they say, I feel like I already know you.
Good. And I'm doing my job because I want people. And it helps with. It helps. So, like, maybe you get that lead. There's already some trust built there, so it makes clear closing that deal easier. All because they feel like.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: And, and might even disqualify somebody who you wouldn't want to work with anyway if they already think, you know, I don't, I don't jive. Right. Me and Leslie, we're not going to get along well. They're not going to contact you, and you're not going to spend time on the phone with them and coming to see them.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yes, yes. I, I've actually, I've had this, like, idea. I haven't posted it yet, but it's, like, on my brain. I just need to, like, flush it out. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna try it here first. The content that you put out should reject people as much as it brings people in.
It should keep the people out that you don't want to work with, and should bring in the people that you do want to work with. So it's twofold. You repel and attract,
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: which on the surface level sounds almost terrifying to a business owner. Why would I want to reject anybody? Why?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: I know, but why would you want to be stuck. Stuck in a project that is completely draining you? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right? For sure.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: We talked. You talked about how Instagram, all these platforms are not free because you're having to invest your time. What is reasonable, do you think, for a designer who is doing this all on their own, for them to put in on Instagram, and we're not counting the time they spend at night scrolling them for their own personal enjoyment.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Well, you know what? We can count that. But as far as creating the content that is going to. There's a lot of factors in there. How well prepared are you? Right. If you know what you're going to be posting, then you're not.
I mean, and that's one of the biggest things that here is like, it takes me forever even just coming up with ideas. So that's a hard one for a lot of designers, you know, that they've communicated to me. So if it's taking you a long time, go, go back to what are those five, you know, the five content types and just start brain dumping ideas under those.
And then that way you can kind of take those and just start kind of plugging them in. Then there comes the content creation and designers, I love you and your perfectionism is what leads to beautiful projects. But it's also what is holding you back from getting content out is because it's, you know, you're looking at it and you're making tweaks here and you're making.
Don't treat your, don't treat your content like you treat your designs. Okay? It is, we're going to get it out there. Perfection doesn't exist. So you're never going to get there. For somebody, it's going to be, you know, your worst piece of content is going to look perfect to somebody.
Your perfect piece of content is going to look, there's somebody out there that's going to find flaws in it. So get over that. Just get the content out there. Okay, that's, that's really the big one because that is, that's a huge thing that holds designers back.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah. And, and if they are nervous about doing that and they, they have to, you know, analysis by paralysis or whatever they call it.
But stories do, stories, they disappear. Yes, yes. Like get on there, say something, you know, and if it doesn't resonate with people, the worst thing is, is you don't, you don't get any feedback and then it disappears after 24 hours.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah. And I would say too that, you know, when it comes down to it, again, don't be, don't focus all of your time on creating content. And then, and then you're going to be so burnt out by that point that you're, you're not even going to want to get on and scroll.
You know, the other suggestion I have for that too is on the day that you're going to create content, don't, don't scroll first. Don't like, just do like create your content because the minute you go and start scrolling, these ideas are going, you're like, well, am I copying that or mine's not going to be as good as this.
And it just, you're starting to. That's the comparison. And then it really makes creating your content a lot harder. I think I just rambled on without answering your question. So how long should it take? I can tell you, for us, it probably takes anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half to create a week's worth of content for our clients.
Sometimes not so much. Sometimes a lot longer. I spent two hours editing a reel last week, so that was one reel. But usually it's not like that. You know, that was a very different situation where we had a lot going on in that video.
But we don't usually, we don't usually create super involved reels like that. That was just a special one. But yeah, that's how long. But again, this is what I do for a living. I've been writing this content for my clients for years.
So I know them, I know them very well. But again, you know yourself like you know your brand very well. So don't overthink it. Get in there, do it. Put it, you know, to the side the next day. Maybe go put your eyeballs on it again, make a few tweaks, call it good.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Oh, that sounds good.
Okay, you brought up clients, so let's, why don't we dive into the services that you offer interior designers from the most, the most value driven service to like, you know, Leslie is doing everything for you.
I want to know it all.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: All right, well, so what, what we offer is we have power hours. So these are highly focused consulting calls where, you know, you bring whatever it is that you need help with.
For a lot of the people who come to me for power hours, it is, I have no idea what to post. Right. So that's where we kind of go back and it's like, all right, well, let's create a content plan. These are the five types of content that then we just start brain dumping what those ideas are going to look like.
Put them on a calendar and like, this is your calendar. This is how you know what you're going to be posting, you know, on Tuesday the 4th. And you know, all of that. I've also helped clients who have moved into, they moved locations, right?
So they're having to basically start over, getting local eyes on their, on their business. So we come up with strategies of how to do that. You know, somebody wants to get into email marketing and they might have no idea how to do that. We'll sit down, we're like, okay, let's create an email strategy looking at what your other strategies are.
So we're not having to like double, you know, double work. Let's make it all work together. So that is the power hour. Then we have the Design Social membership. And this membership is for, you know, designers who, they enjoy doing the social media.
They want to keep that in house. They're not really ready to let go of that, but they just want direction, so they don't want to have to think of what am I going to post this month? Because every month we're going to give them a content calendar full of ideas. We give them caption templates to go with the.
The content, the topics. We give them image suggestions. So should you be doing a reel? Should it be a graphic, should it be a carousel? You know, and we give them hashtags, so it's really easy peasy. They can just take that, put in their information. It's not, it's not a copy paste.
And I don't want anybody to get that idea. It took me about a year to develop this because I really wanted to avoid that because I strongly believe in being genuine and being authentic. And I can't say, use this caption in, in, you know, good faith that that's gonna be genuine.
Like, they have to. You, you still have to put in your thoughts to it. But we also have AI prompts. So it could be like, this is the topic, this is what you, you know, please share. And then it could be whatever that designer sharing. Because every designer's got different things going on, right?
Somebody might be in the middle of a bathroom renovation, while somebody else might be in the middle of a kitchen renovation. So the content is going to be different. So anyway, it's highly customizable. And they also get weekly reels templates. So we send about three ideas.
We send one with the Canva template. This is one of the more involved ones where we've got transitions and all of those things. We give them ideas on how to use them and then we give them some other, like, maybe they're. They don't have a lot of time that week, so we'll give them some, like, short, quick ideas that they can, they can run with.
There's also, with the Design Social membership, it's not just about Instagram. It's really about having that diverse marketing strategy so they have access to Pinterest training and how to develop their own strategy, email marketing, how to get that up and going. They get monthly email templates so that they can just kind of customize those and send those out.
So that's the design, social membership. And then the more of the done for you services are the management. And we do have two different packages, the basic and the premium. Both packages start with us creating that marketing foundation. So once we get that, that's when we go back and we can, that's when we can create a content plan.
And we create the content plan. The client comes to a content planning call where we have all of the topics in, we have all of the images put in. They get to get their eyeballs on it, make sure that that looks good, we get the thumbs up, maybe we make some tweaks for that month. And then we go through each one and I'm asking them very pointed questions so that whenever we write content, it's from their perspective and not ours.
Our goal is to make sure that whenever they hire us, when people go to their account, they're going to say, wow, Susie, you're, you're, you're doing so great with your Instagram. We don't want them to know that somebody else is doing it for them. So with the basic package, once we create it, we basically hand it over and say it's, you know, here you go, it's all tied up in a nice neat little bow.
That client will then post it and do all their engagement. If they are on the premium plan, we take care of all of it. They just say, looks good, we'll go in, we schedule it, we do the engagement on their behalf. So if anybody is comments, you know, we'll kind of try to keep that conversation going.
We're going to be engaging with different accounts. So, yeah, that's how we, that's how we take care of our, of our management clients.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Jamie, what sparked your. Your entry into this business? How. How did you become who you are today?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah, so it was kind of a very long, winding journey, so I'll give you the shortened version. So when I was in corporate, I was a manager in the internal operations department for an international marketing company. And my team was a great team. A lot of my team members, more entry
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Sounds amazing. Do you, do you find people move between programs ever?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah, yes. Yeah, I do. I mean, and it's been both ways. Like, some people will move up and some people will move down, you know, and really, I think it's one of the best compliments is that when somebody's like, you've taught, and this has happened several times, I know what to do now.
You've shown me what to do. I think I can do this on my own now. And they do, which is fantastic. So, yeah, and then we do have people that are like, okay, you know, maybe, maybe managing their social media relationship was manageable, but maybe they've gotten too busy.
And that's when, you know, they'll, they'll sign on for a management service.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah, I could see that. I could see people moving in both directions. I Mean, just talking with you for a short period of time, you've already made me think about a number of different things differently.
And I'm like, okay, so maybe I can't afford the full service premium management package right now, but we'll. We'll start with the power hours, and then I try a few things. I'm like, yeah, you know, that's working really good. Okay, well, what if we threw a little bit more money at it, we joined the membership program, and then we do that for six months, and it's like, okay, you know, we've gotten a lot more leads.
This is really good. Okay, now, what if we let Leslie take over it and maybe that's too much and you find your sweet spot. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Because, I mean, I do a fair amount of research for all of these podcasts, and it's, you know, so I'm looking through reviews, I'm checking all this stuff.
So I was pretty. And I watched you on different podcasts, so I was pretty excited about doing this. This chat with you anyway, so. No, that sounds fantastic. So let's say I'm a designer, and I'm going to reach out to you for.
You can maybe just. I want to know what it's like when I reach out to you and what are the next steps, what happens? How does that work?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah, for sure. So the first thing that we do is we set up a discovery call, because, you know, I want to meet. I want to meet the designer. I want them to meet me.
We really talk about goals, because sometimes people come to me and they're like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. And I'm thinking this. But that's not the right service for them if they're trying to get here. So we really just kind of figure out, okay, what is it that you want to happen? And I kind of go through them at the services and just kind of guide them about, if that's what you want, this is probably going to be the best option for you.
It's not the most expensive option either. Yeah, that's one thing, too, is a lot of designers really don't understand how many. How many content ideas that they actually have. They just don't know how to organize them. So. And bring a system to them. So I think that's what we do really, really, really well is not just that creative side, but also just creating a workflow that's manageable.
So anyway, we kind of go through that. They determine, you know, what the best option is, and we Kind of move forward from there. So if that's maybe a power hour, they'll go book a power hour. If they decide on the membership, they'll go sign up for that. Or if they want management services, then, you know, we kind of stop the ARM onboarding process for that.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay. And I assume when clients reach out to you, they're going to be at different stages and different levels of education when it comes to, like marketing their business, for example, I come to you and I really don't have a firm grasp on my brand, my client, my ideal client avatar.
I don't have all that stuff versus somebody who is like dialed in. I know exactly who I want to reach. I'm just not doing it well. I'm guessing that would impact how you're going to work with them because how much? Sorry, go ahead.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah, the most success, successful, I guess relationships that we have with clients, especially on the management side, are those who come to us and they know their brand. Like they have their branding already figured out. Basically what we are doing is creating content that represents the brand.
But we are not branding experts. That's not what we do. So if they, if they don't have all that branding figured out, we do encourage them to, you know, reach out to, you know, a brand specialist or take the time to really kind of develop it.
You know, we'll give them what our onboarding looks like because it basically is like asking you all your branding questions and kind of guiding you through it. So whenever we say, what's your ideal client avatar? We don't ask you to write a, you know, paragraph. We ask you very pointed questions about that.
We're going to ask you. When we, when it comes to content pillars, we are going to ask you, what is your brand value? If your brand could be known for three things, what would it be? You know, when some, when you want your, when somebody thinks about your brand, what do you want them to think of? And that's really the messaging that we want to kind of drill into people and every piece of content is going to come back to that.
And then also the goals. You know, some people, they have very unrealistic goals. And I'll tell them, you know, that's, that's not what we do. I can't guarantee that that's going to happen. You know, I think one of the things that I don't believe in having a big following.
So when people come to me and they say, well, I want to grow, you know, my follower count to 10k in three months, okay? Well, red flag. That's not realistic. And my second question is always. Well, I don't. My question is, why?
Why do you want to grow that following? What is that going to do? How? Because you're not going to get a paycheck when you hit 10k, 50k, whatever it may be. You're not even guaranteed that you're going to be getting leads at that point or leads that you want.
So let's figure out what you really, really want and create a strategy around that. Because. Create metrics around that so that we can track it and not just say, you know, we want more engagement.
We want more engagement. You know, so anyway, just making sure that it's, you know, again, realistic.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah. And speaking to metrics there, while there are, you know, the social media metrics that we talk about, whether it's followers and leads, engagement, direct messages, whatever, ultimately, for the designer, they want leads.
They want. And they want good leads. Yes, Right. So for the. For the designer who works in Cincinnati, Ohio, getting a DM from someone in South America is a complete waste of time. Yeah, right.
But because you've gotten your 13, 000 followers now, you're like, all right, I'm getting all the. But they're no good. Yeah, yeah. So maybe you need to be like, Leslie's the one who's focused on all those Instagram metrics, knowing where that's going to take the designer.
But the designer should always be focused on, like, the vanity stuff is irrelevant. It's like, how. How am I going to grow the business with social media?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: I know. And there's just so much content out there, too, that I think it's, you know, I grew my following by 50,000 in seven weeks, and you can, too.
Like, there's so much of that out there. And my warning is that, okay, that's great, but who are these followers? Are they people that you want to work with and what did you do behind the scenes to do that? You know, we don't know. You could have been spending 10 hours a day, you know, cranking out content, engaging, doing all the things did you spend on ads?
Like, you know, what. What does that look like? And just because you did it for yourself, does that mean you can do it for others? So anyway, I think we're just so conditioned to focus on those vanity metrics that, you know, and that's. That's fine for content creators.
They do get paid that way, but you're a business owner, you don't get paid that way. So it's really important to put though that chatter to the side and focus on what really matters.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah, I, I saw a short video the other day of a content creator from India and they were being interviewed, or maybe they were interviewing Mr.
Beast and they blew his mind because they said on their social, their Instagram account they post a minimum of a hundred times a day. It's crazy, right? Like they're just, they, all they are is a content creator looking for influence, all that kind of stuff.
But it blew Mr. Beast mind. And for them it worked because they're like, we don't care. You're. When you are going through your feed, you might see me once or twice, right? But I put out a hundred posts a day, so it's not like they're going to see a hundred of.
They're going to see all 100 of my posts and get sick of me. Right. But for the designer, for the business owner, there's no point to doing that though that follower count doesn't, you know, result in leads necessarily.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: No, it doesn't. And I think too that sometimes we get so wrapped up on chasing followers that we neglect the people that actually took the time to follow us in the first place.
And this is kind of. I want to go back and just, you know, you got to think about how we just talked about every piece of content has a purpose. Reels, for the most part, I mean, I can't say with a hundred percent, you know, accuracy, but based on, I know how my account works, I know how my clients work because I can see the back end of it.
Reels are getting pushed to non followers. If you go look at your analytics and you look at your reels, go and look because I can tell you I'm a like probably 92 on average. For me, about 90% above are all non followers on reels.
So that means that only like 10% of my followers are actually seeing my reels. Right. But if I post a carousel that's reversed, I'm going to see more. Now my reach isn't going to be as high, but that's okay because I'm not worried about that.
I'm worried when I post a carousel, it's because that is for my community. I am posting for them. That is the point. So if I want to grow, I'm going to post reels. If I want to nurture, I'm going to post carousels.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, that's interesting. Could we use the same content in that way? Say we had a real say. We, we did a walkthrough of A of a new job. It's demo day. Things look crazy. So we'll put, put just the straight up reel as a reel and then maybe we make a carousel where the, the first image is an image and then it leads into the video or something like that.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Absolutely, yes. Repurpose, repurpose, repurpose all of your content. So, you know. Yeah, that's, that's a great point. Yeah, definitely.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: I knew this was going to be a great chat. Knew it. I knew it.
Could you give me. Let's, let's do some, some hits and misses here. A success story of a client and a story that didn't go so well and that could be like the client didn't listen to you for whatever reason.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah. I think one of my favorite success stories was a client and I, to be completely transparent, this was probably like five years ago, so different landscape, remember? But she was, had just started out.
I mean, she had. The only project that she had under her belt was her own kitchen. That was it. That's all we had to work with. But she knew who she wanted to get. She wanted to get in front of builders, she wanted to work with builders. So we really created a content strategy where we spoke to, you know, the pain points of builders, how a designer can help them, you know, all of that.
Within three months, she had a builder in her area reach out to her and was starting to work with them. So, you know, again, like I said, different landscape. But I think it all goes back to talk to your people. You know, I think we can all. I think we all probably have, you know, a time where we remember coming across.
Maybe it was a piece of content or maybe it was an ad that you're like, they're in my head. They know exactly that I'm. That I'm struggling with this. They are. They know that this is how it's making me feel. And so, you know, if you, if you can get to that point, people are going, they're going to listen to you, but so know your people and talk to them.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, now how about a. How about a not so good story?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah. Gosh. Oh, that's a hard one. Yep, that is a hard one. You know, I think, and I do want to say too, not everybody is ready or will ever be ready to hand off their social media.
And, you know, just. And we've experienced it, you know, we've had during the discovery call and the onboarding, things look great. And then we get into it and there's a lot of reluctance to let go of things. And, you know, I think one of the things that, you know, not just designers and not just me, but anybody who hears this, you got to be willing to take some.
Some risks. You know, as long as it feels genuine and authentic, you got to be taking some risks. And especially if things aren't working, you know, if. If you're stuck and maybe you're not getting engagement that you want, you're not getting the leads that you want, but you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I mean, we all know that that's the definition of insanity. So, you know, I think, yeah, you just have to be willing to make some pivots. This client was not willing to make some pivots, and it wasn't. And we couldn't work with that, so we had to part ways,
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: which is frustrating for you. But to me, it seems so confusing that an interior designer who is asking a homeowner to put their home in their hands and spend a boatload of money. Yeah. Would then do. Turn around and do the same thing with you.
Yeah. I'd say, you know, Leslie, I know you know what you're doing, but this is my baby. I can't let it. Well, then you're. You've got a DIY Instagram account, right?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like going to the doctor and being like, hey, doctor, you know, I'm suffering from this, and he tells you to take it.
They're like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. Why?
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: No, you know, that's another way of looking at it. We all want the pill, right? Nobody wants to do the hard work. Right? Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. Okay, what about designers? Who. Okay, well, like that designer. You talked about that. That the success story, starting out to afford or willing to put that chunk of money on. On a marketing expert. That takes a bit of guts.
What about the designers that don't have those guts? Like, if you were to. You were sitting down with a friend who's a designer, and they. They couldn't afford to work with you, but they had your ear for half an hour, what would you tell them?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: I would. I would go back. I just tell them, like, the marketing foundation is your. Is the first thing. Like, do not pass go. Do not collect $200 until you have your marketing foundation in place. Get clear on your goals. Get clear on what you're going to do to achieve those goals, and how are you going to measure those goals.
And once you got that in place, move on to your ideal Client avatar, go online, you can find a. I mean, and I even have an ICA workbook. It's a free download. So if, if there's a designer out there that's like, I haven't done this, I'm not really sure how to do it.
Go to my website, download it and work through it, because this gets going to help you get really crystal clear on who your person is and how to talk to them. And then the third thing is the content pillars. What is the messaging?
Okay, what are you again? Think about the three things that you want your brand to be known for and make sure every piece of content that you have touches at least on one of those 10 pillars, because that's what makes your brand memorable. And if it feels repetitive, it's supposed to.
It really is. But then, yeah, after that, I would say again, go back to the five, the five content types, make a list, start brainstorming, list, send it through chat, GPT, see what it comes out. Pick what's relevant to you. It's.
Some of it's going to be complete garbage, but some of it's probably going to be good and some of it's going to give you good ideas. So just start making that and then find a consistency that is manageable for you. If it is not manageable to post five times a day, don't post five times a day.
Post how. Whatever that schedule looks like, just commit to it and stay consistent with it. That's it. Don't ignore your community. Always, always, always. If you're, if you're saying, I'm going to spend two hours, you know, a week on Instagram, then make sure one of that hour is content creation.
The next hour is going to be engagement. And that doesn't mean you have to sit on your phone for hour, even though we probably all do. But break it up over like, you know, maybe 15 minutes on Monday, 15 minutes on Tuesday, whatever that may look like. But don't ignore that because the best marketing is when people are dropping your name in rooms where you're, that you're not in.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: So. Right. you say in terms of engagement? If I have an account that is not buzzing with direct messages, what does engagement look for that person?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: So, yeah, you just got to start conversations like be. Think of, Think of, you know, Instagram as this big networking event, right? And some of us networking. Some days you might feel real chatty and so go into stories because that's where a lot of those conversations can happen.
And don't worry if they're not about design, that's totally fine. And the thing is, with interior designers, what's going to be a lot harder is that most of the time, the clients that you're trying to attract, well, they are personal accounts, they're not necessarily public accounts, so you don't always see them.
So it's really important to know. Again, this goes back to who your ideal client is. Know who they are, where they're probably hanging out. Right. So, you know, maybe there are. I'm trying to think. Brain's going, maybe local types of accounts and just kind of showing up and joining the conversation there.
But again, not. It doesn't have to be about design. Stay away from probably political, you know, controversial topics as a business owner. But the other thing too is in a very genuine and authentic way, find people who have access to your ideal client. All right, Think about realtors, local realtors, right. Think about, you know, construction, remodeling, showrooms, like in your area.
Start building those connections with those people because again, they're the ones who are going to have direct access to your ideal client. Those are going to be great people to refer you.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yep. I was talking to a designer the other day.
They tagged somebody, a local contractor that they had worked with in the past but hadn't spoken with them in a while. And on. On a post. And I was like, oh, did you do the collaborator thing? And she was, what do you mean, collaborator?
And I'm like, well, you can go ahead and tag somebody on a post. That's fantastic. But Instagram has that option to collaborate on a post, and if they say yes, then the post you just did goes to their account and suddenly you've got a whole new audience.
And she was like, what is that? And I'm like, how do you not know that? You're on Instagram six hours, I've seen you on your phone doing this.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: You're giving me content ideas. Now I need to talk about the collaboration feature, because maybe people don't know about it.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: They don't. I mean, and. And I don't consider myself, like, anywhere near like, an expert on Instagram. I suck at Instagram. I'm horrible at it.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: That's so funny. I think sometimes too, like, and, and again, kind of just going back to this, like, content ideas.
I think a lot of times we. Whenever you are. So, like, for me, everything is about social media, right? So, like, the simple, easiest things that I think everybody knows, they don't. They're not living, breathing this. And that's the same Thing with like design, like the little, like little tips and things like that.
You think like, yeah, everybody knows this. They don't. So just I guess, like, what is the whole thing? Explain it to me like, I'm a five year old. You know, I think that's what we kind of have to do. But I'm really glad that you brought up the collaboration feature and I don't mean to get off topic here, but I would say too, for anybody who is looking to increase visibility, that is a fantastic way to do that.
The other thing I really want to talk about is just tagging other accounts. They might not be, it might not be a collaboration situation, but. And I know that this is super controversial and I might catch a little hate for this, but, you know, some designers don't like tagging brands and vendors and all that thing in their post because they feel like, well, my client has paid, paid for that and I don't want to give the design away.
You know what, if that's your, if you feel very strongly about that, you know, go for it. However, I just want to say this. When is the last time you opened up a, you know, your house beautiful. And you look at all of these gorgeous designs and you want to, you read through them and guess what?
Everybody is giving credit. Everybody. I mean, you've got, you know, your flooring, your lighting, all everybody is given credit. My other thing with that is that just because you don't want to. And this is the other thing too, that I think, you know, people ask, oh, where's the coffee table from?
Oh, where is the sofa from? What paint color did you use? And designers don't want to give that out for the same reason. Just because you share that information does not mean that that person can take what you have done and go back and recreate it. If I were to see somebody walking down the street in a gorgeous outfit and I said, hey, where can I get that?
And this person tells me, well, I got the jeans at some place and the hat and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, does not mean that I can go into that store and buy all of those pieces and look as gorgeous as that person did walking down the street. I mean, it might have been the color that she was wearing, right? Because that's her color, which is not my color.
It could have been. That's because those clothes fit her body perfect and I have a different body type and they're not going to look the same on me. So I think that, you know, when I think I told you earlier, I'M an oversharer. I don't think anybody can ever over share. I really don't.
You know, because just because I'm telling you something doesn't necessarily mean that it takes away from what I can do for you. Right? And so, like with designers, I feel like there's a huge missed opportunity to build trust with an audience. Because guess what? If you tell that person that, hey, this coffee table came from, blah, blah, blah, and if it's to the trade, they can't go get it anyway.
But you've just, they're going to come back because they're getting stuff from you, which means your engagement is going to go up. And when your engagement goes up, that signaling to Instagram that people like this, so they send it out to more people. And you could have somebody in that audience who's wanting to know where that coffee table came from, who's got an aunt who needs, you know, an interior designer for another project.
So you're creating a reference referral network that way just by building that community. So anyway, that's my soapbox. I'm gonna get off of it now.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: No, I agree. I agree. You're not fooling anybody because, I mean, I can pull my phone out, open up Google Lens, take a picture of that thing, and it'll tell me where I can buy it.
So if it's custom, right? If it's to the trade, then it is definitely trickier. But yeah, everybody, like people want. Everybody's got that same thing. They're on there. They may be. I mean, maybe there are some companies, right? Maybe Restoration Hardware doesn't care that the designer tags them, but maybe Restoration Hardware local would like that.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I had a. We had a client too, and where we tagged, I think she had used like a Thibault wallpaper in a project. I'm pretty sure it was Thibault. And so of course, you know, that's part of our strategy.
And with designers who feel comfortable with it, I'm never, ever going to push a client out of their comfort zone if they feel very strongly about something, I respect that. But this client, she likes to play along and she's like, yeah, let's tag them. Tag. So we tag. I want to say it was Thibault.
Anyway, they repost it, she gets a lead because they saw it on Thibault's Instagram page and that lead became a client. So there you go. Proof.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: What would the downside? To be quite honest, I can't figure out, really.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: I really can't. I mean, the Excuse that I hear a lot is that my client paid for that, and I don't want to just give it away. And I don't think that you could possibly give it away. Like, they can't. You know, there. There are so many factors that go into every design decision, every single one made in a space that is so unique to the vision and the space itself that it can't be recreated. It really can't.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: The designer, to be quite honest, could possibly post the blueprints and post every single thing they purchased for that design online for the world to have for free.
Who is going to copy this? Like, how is that going to happen? The house is different. The people living in the house are different, the designer is different. Every. You know, there's going to be so many things in there. It's not. It's not just the stuff, right?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: No, it's not. It's not. And, yeah, and I think, too, even it can't be executed to the quality, to the. To the way that it was originally done. So it's. It'll be a cheap knockoff if they did want to copy it.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah, yeah. And the only time that could even potentially be a problem is the thing you post on your Instagram that has all of these links and information, gets 50,000 views and, you know, 20,000 likes, and suddenly you're this giant Instagram success and now you're getting more clients and like, yeah, terrible. Yeah, that would be awful.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: So terrible. Right? Yeah.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: All right, we've reached the end of my questions, but is there anything I've missed, maybe that you think the designers of the world need to know?
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Oh, gosh, we've covered a lot. You know, I just. I think if. If at the end of this, if designers could take away just one thing from this is, yes, we talked about, like, having this, you know, the strategy and laying it out.
And for me, and the way my brain works is, like, I like to have that structure because I can go back and measure that structure. But if all you can do is just post, just post, you know, just do that. Honestly, like, and I think too, is, like, what I say they are.
They are not hard and fast rules. They're not. This is how I do things. This is how I've done things with my clients. This is what has brought us results, and I'm happy to share that. But it is by no means the end all be all. You know, you have to do it this way. There's a ton of people out there that do it different and they're successful, too.
So, you know, I think find little things that work for you. If the whole framework doesn't work for you, then don't do it. Because if you don't do it, then it's not working. So just do what's working.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Fantastic. Thanks so much, Leslie. If any. If anybody is interested in hooking up with Lezlie and Swink Social, I will post all of the links, including the free ideal client avatar piece you have, and they'll all be in the show notes.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Awesome.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Okay, thanks so much, Leslie.
Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co: Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: My pleasure.
Interior Designers Need a Different Approach to Instagram Marketing
I am by no means an expert on Instagram marketing. I listen to the gurus and try my best, but so far, I give myself a 4 out of 10. This is a big part of why I was so excited to get Lezlie Swink on the podcast.
I had already heard Lezlie on a number of interior design business podcasts and not only was it obvious she knew her stuff, she was happy to give away that know-how for free.
I’m so glad that she agreed to come onto the Interior DesignHer podcast. Not only did she answer ALL of my many questions, but she answered all those questions as if she was speaking to a 5 year old.
Which she kinda was.
Connect with Lezlie Swink - Swink Social Co.
If you want to chat with Lezlie and learn more about her Instagram marketing strategies for interior designers, you can reach her at:
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