Kate Cook: 3D Rendering Artist for Interior Designers
Your client stares blankly at your floor plans. Your presentation stalls. You know the design will transform their space, but they just don't see it.
What do you do?
Kate Cook solves this problem for interior designers by transforming their 2D architectural plans into fully immersive 3D spaces…that homeowners understand, appreciate & get excited by.
2D Architectural Plans vs 3D Renders
In the “olden days”, big-name interior design & architectural firms helped prospective clients visualize their designs with the use of physical 3D models. These models cost a lot of money & took a long time to build. Smaller firms had to rely on 2D architectural drawings & persuasion.
Today, computers, software & AI have advanced to a point where every interior designer & architect can afford to create virtual 3D models of their designs.
Tomorrow, virtual reality & augmented reality tech will take those designs off the computer screen and let homeowners experience your interior designs in a fully immersive, 3D virtual reality that will help them “see” the brilliance of your interior designs.
A Business Case for 3D Renderings
There is nothing wrong with presenting your interior designs using hand sketches & 2D architectural drawings. Unless you’re dealing with a homeowner unable to translate those 2D drawings into a fully realized 3D version within their mind.
3D renderings make it infinitely easier for homeowners to:
Understand your design
Fall in love with your design
Hire you to build your design
And its going to get even better. In the near future, the combination of 3D rendering software, AI, VR and Augmented Reality tech will help homeowners experience your design concepts in a way that looks & feels…real.
Designers who embrace this technology are going to have a profound advantage over those that don’t.
If you’ve EVER considered hiring a rendering artist to take your architectural drawings off the page and into the world of 3D renderings, you’re going to love my podcast interview with interior designer & 3D rendering artist Kate Cook.
Listen to the podcast…
Don’t forget to subscribe to the Interior DesignHer podcast for regular doses of expert advice, industry insights, and practical tips.
We’ve got a bunch of great interviews with some really smart ID business people coming up in Season 2.
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Watch the podcast…
Chapters
00:00 Intro
00:49 Kate's Origin Story
06:22 Kate Cook Virtual Design
07:25 The value of hand sketching
10:24 Outsourcing
11:30 Why don't more interior designers use 3D renders?
12:35 What's it like working with Kate?
15:00 In-house vs Outsourcing
17:40 What's it like for designers working with a 3D rendering artist
21:30 3D Renderings as a profit center for your business
23:10 Technology
25:30 AI
34:30 In-house vs Outsourcing pt. 2
37:00 How to contact Kate
38:00 Outro
Read the transcript…
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: There's a lot of artists in my family. My mom, as an interior designer for high end hospitality hotels. So I think when I first saw people at work with markers on their desk, I got excited about rendering.
Oh, wow. So, yes, we did. She did Beverly Wilshire, and she worked with Hyatt and all these things that I was exposed to. And I saw some computer renders, but it was only the top of the top. Big time projects would invest in that
And then I was an interior designer for restaurants for many years, and I got to be in charge of commissioning or downloading or uploading, however you say it, onboarding the projects to the render artist. And they're using markers and paint and airbrush. And, I mean, this was a long time ago where we would have to drive the samples to this, to the guy's studio, and if it or the color was off, if it was really bad, we'd do an overlay.
So I think I feel kind of the way how I've been on the other side getting renderings of my projects and trying to tell them what it's going to be and how these finishes relate in the space and, of course, the plans and everything. And so, and I was probably a little jealous of the render artists that they get to sit there and do a drawing of these beautiful finishes that we've, you know, in the furnishings and everything for all the restaurants.
So, yes, and the other great part, the render artists, since they're at the beginning of the dreaming of the projects or even before the designer gets the project, I was like, hey, they got that project that my boss didn't get. They still got the project, you know, because they're at the inception and the, you know, for the presentation.
And so, yeah, I just grew up in interior design, and I tried my hand at sales. No, not so great. Like, I would make friends more than sales. It'd be real personable. And from assisting my mom, I really like the role and also being, like, a junior designer on a team, really, like, assisting, being in that supportive role.
And so far, my clients have really thought that I get into their head and show what they were dreaming of. Like, before she knew it, she had a kind of a video walkthrough of what her plan looked like.
And so the way, how it really came about was silly that before the you know, the pandemic and everything. In 2019, I started working remotely, and I dove into this virtual world working for Modsy. And so if you don't remember, there were remote homeowners would buy a package and get a rendering and furnished and a sales deal to furnish everything that's in the design.
So, um, so, yeah, I got to learn. Dive in, learn about Zoom meetings, and they're like, just make such and so forth on Canva. And I didn't know what Canva was back then. And so after that ended, I, one of my co workers knew about the E-design Tribe. So ever since then, I've been learning and I've done a few design work with it and mainly assisting and just serving interior design professionals. Like, I just really communicate their unique design solutions for their customers exact space. And it helps bridge the gap, because when the customer or the clients of my clients, they can't visualize all the time the 2D or what the spatial relations is going to be.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: So you're saying your interior design clients or your interior designer clients, have problems visualizing?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: No, their client.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: That's me, 100%. Like, being able, like, when I would listen to my wife talk to her clients, and I was always struck by she would be describing something and I'd be like, okay, it makes sense to me now. And I'm like, that's a talent. So you being able to do that is 100% a superpower.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Being in so many design projects and, like, just always seeking out and redesigning every place I see, it's just second nature.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: So when did you start your business, then? Hang out your shingle, just you?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Well, I think it was about, like, three years ago, or. I've had a few clients, though, when I really first, before even Modsy is, I was doing some hand sketches when my daughter was really young and I was in a neighborhood. I found a designer and showed her my portfolio, and she liked the sketches. So in an effort to get her perspective and all the sizes right, I made a computer underlay and then proceeded to do sketches for ten years for her where it has all the little details and nail heads and, like, stuff, where it'd be really hard to find the exact model, but I would just sketch it on, you know, and I didn't even know about finding models or rendering. I was just using the machine to get my perspective right, to be honest. Because, you know, drawing... Drawing is... Is another talent altogether.
You know, freehand, I was more of a tracer, but it worked.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Sometimes I wonder almost that that skill set of being able to do the hand drawings, if that kind of like how vinyl has come back in the music industry, if that will eventually come back, that people will see value in that.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Oh, there's a lot of value in that because if you could have a hand sketch while you're maybe in a meeting or even you're harnessing somebody's imagination and they're filling in the blanks, and also you're maybe like sculpting the, the use or the shape, you know, like kind of the shapes in the space and somebody can visualize it and then you get the dialogue going and then the design is enhanced.
But I like also I offer different service where you could have start off with a wire frame and because the design's always evolving and sometimes you might need to figure out the spatial relationship before you know exactly what throw pillow fabrics, such and so, you know, little details. And when it's Mydoma designer, because they usually use Mydoma visualizer when they could take the plan or take my 3D and use it to finish their ideas and their thoughts and seeing things from different directions. And even after the project is completed, it always evolves. So if they have the file, they could show the new wallpaper and make a new printout or, you know, you, they can continue to use the rendering.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: And, and that, would that also allow you to kind of enter that designer's project earlier on as opposed to just at the end when everything is kind of done and now you're just producing this beautiful 3d render where it looks amazing. But if you've given them that wire draw product first, you're in there earlier in the project and you kind of become a team member.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Yes. Yes. Sometimes I have helped work out some space planning and where I'm really in the process, you know, as the designer is working. And it's really fun for and effective to have somebody come in and be a second set of eyes. You know, maybe I'll see something doing the drawings and I'll say, hey, you had wall sconces, you know, like, remember to add that to the budget early on, like, catch other things. It's great to have somebody to bounce it off of. And I've done specs, I've done presentations. I've been on both sides of the desk. So it's, it really works out well.
I've have, and another reason why outsourcing can be really great is these designers projects last a really long time, and the presentation is just like the tip of this iceberg, and then there's so, so much more. So why would they want to keep up the expense, the monthly expense of keeping the technology up to date or having even a staff? But on the other hand, if you've had a project and you had the investment of a rendering and you saw how helpful it was and how much, the clients could see their space ahead of time and really be gung ho, and then you see that you're using it with your sub-contractors, showing them details about the tile placements, and, you know, it just goes on and on. And you could use it for social media.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: In preparation for our chat, I spoke with a handful of designer friends who some already do their own 3D renders, some who farm it out to someone like you, and some who've never done it. And I found it interesting. And I'd ask, I'd say... So why are you not doing 3D Renders? And the cost was complaint number or concern number one. And so they're like, well, and I can't do it myself. I went to design school 15 years ago. I never learned how to do this. I do all these other things well, but I don't do this. And then I would say, well, why don't you hire somebody who does have these skills? Well, that's going to cost a lot of money. And I tried arguing, and I wanted to ask you this question, is, if I'm going to pay you x amount of dollars to do all of this for me, it's not like it's going in as a budget line to the homeowner eventually, and it could almost be a profit center. I'm not saying markup what I'm paying you exponentially, but there's value to what you do, and the designer should be able to sell that to the homeowner client, definitely.
So I'm curious, when you have a first time client, someone who hasn't done 3D renders, and they come to you, what is that like for them and for you?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Well, I think they're wondering how the file will be shared and some of the nitty gritty details. And then I, you know, like, what will they get in the end with the deliverables? So there's lots of files I could make, you know, angle every angle and panoramic. You know, those fly through videos that you see on Instagram that are so beautiful.
And so what happens a lot of times is even designers who, they've made their whole career showing pictures like your cabinet will look like this, your window will look like this. And they, with their storytelling, they can weave a picture and most of their clients will be on board and be able to see it with a plan. But I come in when they just know their client is not seeing it, is having trouble visualizing it, or they want to do maybe a big change and the husband's not on board. That was like going to change the ceiling from wood to a white tone.
Sometimes the customer, my clients, customers ask for a rendering and they required a rendering. So even if they didn't, you know, they go through their whole career, there's some instances where they'll call on me. And so that's when outsourcing so great, because if they're not doing it all the time, and also it's, it takes kind of a practice to keep, to be able to do it effectively.
And I have it look not so mechanical and getting the lighting right and the sourcing. Like sometimes I just don't know how I'm going to find the furniture. And sometimes I get lucky and find the real models for their furnishings. And sometimes we have to use our imagination a little bit or maybe even make a model, depending on how important it is. Yeah, but I make the size and the color and everything so it looks like the thing they're specifying.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Right. So say I have a residential firm and I've got a junior designer who has access, or we can get access to the exact same software that you have. How big a difference is it going to be in terms of final product? Time spent, aggravation, all that stuff between having this junior designer try tackling this project or just asking you to do it. How much more efficient are you than someone like that?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Well, I can source and maybe build a few extra things, but I think that it comes so second nature with some of the video games that people are raised on. And I don't think it's a problem, really. They could be up and running and you could even start using the wireframes right away if the lighting isn't up to par. And then every project the junior designer does gets better and better. And there's all kinds of tutorials.
Say, if you do have Mydoma, they have the best customer service and Youtubes and transcripts and examples and office hours. So there's really no reason why somebody couldn't learn it but to call on me, I have some expertise and tricks and I've working on the same visualizer platform or whatever they call it for since 2020. Or 2021, I don't know. So that's a lot of practice and also so many different scenarios I've come across. And they always keep it getting, making it better.
We just have version with two stories. And I, it came right after having a sunken living room that I was challenged with. I was, oh, I wish that project would have been a few months later.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Oh, really? So it's changing that much?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Yeah, you could see two stories on it, like, change the transparency of it so you could kind of see what's going on where before you'd have to go upstairs, downstairs, or render to see what's happening. Say, like if you had a balcony and you're looking at a chandelier, you can see it when you're downstairs.
Wow. When you render, you know, until you, until you put, you know, make the picture.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: So, okay, so let's, let's go back again. And I'm that hypothetical interior designer who's maybe I have a client who says, yeah, I would like to, to see a render of this before I make a decision. And you're like, oh, well, darn it, I don't, I don't do that. I'm not saying this to the homeowner, obviously. I'm like, okay, so I reach out to you and I'm not saying it's a rush and you have to drop everything. But what would that process look like from my point of view as the interior designer in terms of time spent, what I have to provide to you, any kind of back and forth. How does that work?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Oh, it varies per project, of course. But what you have to do is present, like, do a dry run of your presentation, because I need to know everything that's going on, what all your awesome design solutions are so we can showcase them. So I like to really make it easy where, say, in the form, like, say they have a whole Google Slides or they have a Pinterest board. So instead of saying, oh, now, now you have to shove everything into my program. I just receive it in the way that it exists.
So I take it in its organic form. I get the plans and the as built, and I populate a Mydoma file and project binder that they could come to and they kind of like it because they stopped going from 50 emails and text pictures. And so I gather everything. Sometimes I sleuth around and look for extra information. Like, for instance, I found a floor plan from, like the builder one time when they didn't have a floor plan, because I like to research things, and the time spent is just really how organized their, their items are, if they have it all ready with the, say, like with the websites and specs. So I know how big and everything is or what everything sizes.
And I do drafts, so that way, the back and forth, I gather up all the back and forth and show it to them at once. And I pause. I pause production just for a little bit till I get all the, so that I could go in, because the rendering, you get all the lighting just so. And it takes, you know, a little bit extra for some of the bells and whistles that you want your mirrors to show and reflect the right things. So I don't want to go and change one thing through that five minute process.
So I do try to be efficient and organized, and sometimes I'll just start building the house or building the room, the space, and they're still designing it, so I may just take it as it comes, as they get it. And we always make the deadline somehow. Yeah. And so sometimes there's a little nerve wracking part when I haven't really, I'm trying to get everything else right, like the, what fabrics wear, which what the rug looks like, all the other things. And maybe I didn't do the lighting because that's last. And then you could get a little like, oh, is this going to be okay? And then you put on more layers and work out everything, and it's like, boom. And they're excited.
And it's just, it's really, I have really nice results with this and also, like, the designs that my designers come up with. It's always a thrill to see what neat, new tile they're using or what their solution is for somebody's space. So I just, I love just coming in and being a part of their team for a minute, and I brand. I brand the renderings a lot of time with their logo because I have a personalization on there, so it looks like it's just from their company.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: I can see why some would want to do that. I think there's also value in, like, having you on as a, as an independent yet member of the team.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: I mean, some people are kind of proud, like, hey, my artist. Like, somebody would call me their render artist and promote me on, on social media and show my stuff. It's always mutual, I guess so. Their things, too.
But, yes, there's all different ways because you can use a line drawing and have it being flexible where you, the colors are changing and then bring in and get it fine tuned or maybe you have everything ready and we can make a stunning where it almost looks really lifelike and it's just such a great service because it's hard to just jump in and remember all the controls and how to move around and where the libraries are when you're doing designing. And that comes with its whole other set of challenges and issues. So it's great to have somebody just pinpoint and do what they, you know, just do the thing they're really good at. Yeah. And they can focus on their business or even take some extra time off, be with their family. Right.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: The software itself, how, I mean, you've been using the Mydoma visualizer for a number of years now, correct?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Yes. When it was E-Design Tribe to begin with.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Right. So how have you seen that changing in terms of complexity, what you can do, and maybe ease of use as well? Like, I'm not sure how the software has changed over the past few years.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Oh, I think it's been evolving where I have so much more controls. They like making real time materials and like, I could get the bumps on the upholstery or the carpet. I can make these materials with my upload, so there's no shortage. Like, I could show any real fabric that's in somebody's design if I get a nice jpeg, and then they have ease of use with the second story thing I sort of talked about. And then there's this other part where you don't venture to too much because it's kind of complex. It's advanced materials and modeling, and you can actually model some things and they're kind of like a Sketchup. But then once you do that, you can only interact with that shape in that, like, section or that control panel. So then, you know, when you're changing the colors around, you're like, oh, darn, that's in the special place. Click back over there.
And there's neat little quirks that, that we've all make fun of, like the way how you really can't search something in English. I mean, there's just the craziest names for things. They do have image search, so you can put the share that's in your client's design. Take that JPEG, and they'll show you five pages of what they think is similar. And we have AI features and all this. So, yeah, I've been, I was in part of the first group to be certified for being the visualizer.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: To this point. In interior design industry, AI is still pretty much focused on designers who are using it to create concepts or homeowners that are creating concepts and bringing those to the designers and saying, this is what I would like. And because of this, I've been playing around with it and I've been learning how to more effectively prompt AI, whether it's a chatbot or whether it's an image generator. And there is so much, there is just so much like if you just ask what you think would be a simple prompt to the, to the AI image generator, and it would just come back with some very underwhelming images or very confusing or very robotic looking.
Oh, yeah. But, but, so what I did was I sat down with my group of designers again, and also some photographers who deal exclusively in interior design. So for them, they were giving me, okay, you've got to use, you've got to give them talk about the, in the prompt, about how you're lighting this scene and all the stuff that you've already mentioned. And I'm curious if you can put on your prediction hat, where you see the software you're using now in a year's time or five years time, where do you think this could be? I know it's a tough question. Sorry.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Well, I think what it could do, and it already is to a certain extent, is you say you have a floor plan and you label the use of the rooms, kitchen, dining, etcetera. And then you could put a template and it'll sort of throw stuff down and hope that it fits. But, but the computer, they really don't know how humans interact with the living spaces. And it takes a talented designer and somebody with intuition and soul to figure that out, really. But I mean, it can help with some repetitive tasks, maybe. I don't know. Maybe.
I think the best use so far that I've got me excited was the modeling where it's taking the 2D image and making a model. And, and, you know, I've been following because Jenna was with the, Jenna Gaidusek was with the E Design Tribe, and now she's all things AI, and I listen to her things. And so if any other questions about that, you should ask her. She's had her head in it for a while.
And, I mean, some of the solutions are, or uses, it seems cumbersome to me, like, here's the language we need to speak to the computer so the computer understands, and then we're going to trick it and do this. And there's like five step process. I'm like, here's the paint colors I picked out with my natural intelligence or something.
And the one that I really like, and I think I learned from it from her podcast, was one that uses more of a stable diffusion. And so if you show it a room and you have a fireplace, a walkway, and tall windows, it'll recognize that when it's dreaming up these crazy things or these really, they're really theme heavy because they're finding everything that's ever done such and such boho or whatever, and they find, like, sort of like the extreme version and push that theme, but at least they're knowing where the windows are.
And another fun thing is, I can use my renderings to fool the computer to think it's the before image. So if it says, upload an image of your room, we could have my designer and I can have an image from her floor plan of a house that's never been built. And then you show it to AI, and it thinks it's a real place because my, you know, our renderings look so lifelike. Right.
And I've even explored and experimented with where you couldn't go to the patterns of wallpaper and fabrics and tile, and you can visualize it on this rendering and go through it maybe a little quicker than uploading all that stuff and rendering it. So that's a fun use for that.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: That does sound well. Yeah. And, I mean, the current crop of AI models out there are all based on the large language concept where you feed it all of this data, and that's all fine and good, but if we were to scrape the entire Internet for residential interior design, most of what we're going to find is going to be a lot of DIY and a lot of underwhelming things. It's not like they have a crop of interior designers, right, plugging their experience and skill sets into that model. Because like you said about picking out the paint color, right? There's a reason people hire interior designers now, because they have a skill set that the rest of us don't. And unless we're gonna train those models with your interior, that's what you're stumbling on right now.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: And we better patent this, is that you have a model from the great minds, and then you get a great hive mind from people who are actually in the field. Well, yes, that could be a great thing where people who see, like, it's like, say, AI, where they're coming up with these ideas, and you've used the word underwhelming a couple times. Well, designers, we used to go to the most extravagant, over great things to pull our ideas from.
We weren't looking at this watered down, facsimile copy of something that was copy copied. So we were, we'd have art books. I mean, the design firms that I went to, their library was stunning. We would look all throughout the world. If somebody's doing a certain type of restaurant, we dive into whatever that culture is, and that cuisine. I mean, some people, they would even go on trips for their design. Like the casino people did the Venetian. They went there and they soaked it in and took their own sketches and really, you know, experienced it on a human level. Like, instead of what AI probably has is more that facsimile copy and the toners run out and it's.
So let's just what you put in versus what you get out. One time, I used AI, and it just sort of confirmed what my designer already figured out. Like, I took her design and I go, let's see what AI would do for that. And she liked a few of the treatments, but it almost confirmed she was on the right track already and wasn't missing anything or I don't even think we showed the client, really, because it was. It was just a sort of a side quest just to see.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah, but more of an assistant than a. Than a kind of disruptive technology that's going to take our business away, take our livelihood. Yeah, I think it's a tool. Like, storytelling is storytelling. Like, think about the people who do movies. They have all these different tools, but they're still telling a story and they still need the human person and reasons and, you know, making that connection. So, like, our interiors make a connection with the people who live there or use the space. I don't think a computer could do that.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: I agree. Side note is I was raised by an interior designer, and then my mom's an interior designer, but my dad is a computer guru. Been in computers from the very beginning. And he told me we were going to use computer for our art. And, I mean, he told me all kinds of things early on about modems and computers talking to each other, and we're going to use it in our art and our interior design one day. Dad, you're such a nerd. That's never going to happen. But here I am. I'm like, blend, blend of both things that they. That they were interested in.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: So there you go. You're perfect. You're the. You're the. The meeting of both of them. Exactly. Right? Yes. It's amazing. Yeah.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Okay. And these tools, it's like what I was telling you when I was a young girl, they would only have this caliber of rendering for the most high end projects. And I can do this for my clients, for regular places in the commercial spaces. So it's really amazing.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Yeah, no kidding. That's all I have in terms of questions. Is there anything else about what you do for designers that you think I've missed or you'd like to comment on?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: I think we've touched on good things. I just have a lot of notes, but I don't know. I think we did well. Well, let me flip through those pages. Oh, you were asking, say, like, what factors should a small firm consider when deciding between outsourcing and developing it in house? And we talked about some specific instances, but what are things I came up with is, well, how many. How many projects are you needing a rendering for a year? Or are you in the trenches getting said projects done.
It was just outsourcing is pretty good choice when you. You don't want to invest in having. It's like having a meter running and all this rendering capability, and you're not using it for a few, you know, for most of the year. Right. It all depends, because once you do have a rendering and you see how it helps your project, you might do more, like even one where the client didn't ask, or you might have been able to do, okay, you'll say, hey, let's render that up.So we could see how this art plays out in this hallway or how this tile pattern looks. Or if you have a reason to keep feeding, you have projects to give to a junior designer. You just maybe think of all kinds of reasons, even social media things that they can make an environment and showcase something that's happening at your firm. So there's all sorts of applications that we could be using, not just that final meeting with the client to show them this beautiful picture of what their home is going to look like.
Yeah, there. I remember when I was starting with Edesign tribe, they talked a lot about the shoppable board. You could do those, have a rendering. You could have the information hotspots, where it goes right to your, like, an invoice for the person to buy. Buy it. Or you have affiliate links, and there's so much. Or you could do, say, like, you design a room and let everybody buy all the things on their own or make an online virtual, virtual, virtual design. E design. Right. Okay.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: All right, so, well, you've sold me. So if I want to get in contact with you, what's the best way to do it?
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: The best way is through my website, katecookdesign.com, and I respond quickly, and I just enjoy helping and jumping in and being a supporter and a second eye. I mean, I always keep my opinions in check, though, because I'm not the designer. I'm just. I support. Support what your goals are, what the designer's goals are for their client, and it's really fun collaboration, and it's great. Delegate to Kate.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: Delegate to Kate. Perfect. We'll hashtag that. #DelegatetoKate.
Kate Cook - Kate Cook Virtual Design: Yeah, the other ones collaborate with Kate. So there's two levels.
Douglas Robb - Interior DesignHer: All right, well, I'll make sure to include all of that in the show notes. And. And we start using those hashtags all the time.
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